Talk:Steve Prefontaine

Greatest runner of all time, hands down

Umm why? No world records set or Olympic medals won. Sounds like he had some potential but that's about all really. Lisiate 23:43, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

You didn't happen to read this line did you... "Following the University of Oregon he set his sights on the 1976 Summer Olympics in Montreal, setting American records in every race from 2000 to 10,000 meters." He set the standard for distance running in the U.S. in a time when it was completely unknown. sharpdust 01:43, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Setting national records in a range of distances is impressive but surely not enough to make him "Greatest runner of all time, hands down." Compare that with Emil Zatopek for example; 5,000 10,000 and marathon golds at the same Olympics is far more impressive. Prefontaine was a good distance runner, maybe even a great one but he has no real claim to being the greatest. Lisiate 00:02, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

"He has no real claim to being the greatest"? I am not saying he is the greatest by any means, but to deny that he was a great distance runner as you do is absolutely asinine. Obviously have never seen his actual performance during the Munich Olympics. The movie "Prefontaine" does a good job at depicting this, but still, it would help if you've seen the actual race to know what is going on. Furthermore, to say that just because he didn't win the 5K and 10K medals at Munich means he isn't an impressive runner is utterly silly. Steve Prefontaine only raced in the 10K at the trials, although he could have easily qualified in the 5K, too -- but what would that have solved? He was aiming for the gold, nothing less. Unfortunately his dream did not come true, but it sure was one heck of a race if you've ever seen it. And you implying that his accomplishments are meaningless implies, to me, that you don't know much about running. Holding all of the American Records from 2K to 10K is absolutely AMAZING. There's nothing less that can be said of it! You name me another runner (...ever...) with that kind of range. I can't think of one at all. Enfestid 00:14, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Sorry to be so late in replying Enfestid, have been busy with other things. I never saw Prefontaine run at Munich (too young) but the fact remains he didn't win. I'm sorry but American records aren't enough in my opinion to establish someone as the greatest runner ever. As for a runner with that kind of range, again look at Zatopek - 5k 10k and marathon golds at the same Olympics. I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. Lisiate 03:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

So because Prefontaine did not win automatically negates every single accomplishment that he made in his entire racing career? I'm sorry, but that is rather silly in my book. Yes, he didn't win -- but he got fourth, which is still a darn good place. Is it a medal? No. Is it the gold? No. But you don't look at an athlete's career and say that one event defines them. It is a matter of events that define athletes, specifically their work ethics and will, to which Steve Prefontaine was second-to-none.

As for your Zapotek remarks -- well, that's all fine and dandy, but how goes Emil Zapotek being a great runner change the fact that Pre was, too? And, 5K and 10K is much different than 2K to 10K. A 5K and 10K double does not necessarily show range, nor are they extremely different races. The 5K and 10K are quite often paired together for distance runners, in fact, so it is hardly "range" at all. His marathon gold in the same Olympics, however, is much more impressive. Yet, going off your opinion that careers are defined in a single moment, then how about Zapotek's failure in the 1956 Olympics? No one would define his career on that, just as no one would define Pre's on his failure in Munich. The fact that his life was taken away shortly thereafter doesn't help the situation, either, because we'll never know if he would have achieved gold in Montreal. It is unfair and hardly comparable to liken Prefontaine to someone who competed in numerous Olympics. Prefontaine was only beginning to peak.

As you said, however, agree to disagree. I just wanted to get my last thoughts on the matter in. Enfestid 04:30, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

Greatest runner of all time?? Did Prefontaine hold any world records, or just American records? Compare this to someone like Ron Clarke, who held 17 world records distances from 2 miles to 20,000m, and this makes this claim simply fanciful. Just because they don't make a movie about it, doesn't mean there aren't dozens of other athletes elsewhere achieving far greater things on stages much bigger than American track meets. Mike2680 21:43, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Pre was a great runner. Certainly one of the greatest in American history- but not in the world. There is no reasonable argument for this claim, as he never won an Olympic medal or set a worlds record. If your argument is that his dedication and effort was second to none- then look at Zatopek, who did famous 40x400 m repeats with as little as a 200 meter jog between them. He also did speed work in army boots as resistance training and spent 90% of his races with an expression of agony on his face. If you were to judge purely on talent, which I believe in this particular discussion is the way to go- Kenenisa Bekele is the greatest runner of all time. His 12:37 5000 m world record (about 44 seconds faster than Pre ever ran the event and well over a minute faster than Zatopek ever did)suggests that he could run a mile much faster than Pre ever did. His 10000 m record of 26:17 is unreal, two back to back 5000's 13 seconds faster than Pre ever ran one, and I hope to see him running the marathon some time in the future. User:AndyMarshall 18:23, November 29, 2006

His best world rankings in the 5000m/3mile were #4 in 1972 and #5 in 1973. He was certainly charismatic but his competitive accomplishments do not rank him as one of the "best of all time. Facts are facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.139.62 (talk • contribs) 22:26, May 20, 2007

How bout we call a compromise on this one folks? Okay, there is no way to call any runner anywhere "The Greatest of all Time". Favoritism and changes over time make it an endless circle of arguing. Instead, how bout we say this, "One of the greatest in modern history", because he was a great runner. Lets face it, they did make two movies about him. That alone says something. Maybe he is a real life Rocky Balboa. However, he died before he could really truly make his mark. Records are not everything. I'm a student of UOregon, so I might be biased in his favor, but that does not mean I think him the greatest. History has already told us that he will be remembered for a long time. Ryoga-2003 (talk) 05:57, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I think Pre's accomplishments and records merit him consideration as the greatest "American" distance runner of all time. Unfortunately, Pre died before reaching his running prime. His national stage event was the 1972 Munich Olympics, at age 21, an unheard of appearence for someone so young. Pre's best running years were presumably ahead of him, if you believe that a 5000m runner peaks around age 27 as studies suggest. Pre had re-written American record books along his path to stardom, and seemed to be on a trajectory that would lead him to re-write world record books as well. Many of Pre's personal bests were run in 1974, which indicates that he was still reaching his potential as a runner. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.94.39.141 (talk) 15:46, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Since you have revived this old discussion, let me point out that wikipedia's job is not to make any declaration like this. We summarize what sources (other people, experts in the field) say. So I would guess you could find some people to quote in such an argument, but there is no way you will find a universal acceptance of such a declaration. More important, we present facts. We have a good summation of his accomplishments here. That should suffice. Trackinfo (talk) 19:23, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I would never argue that Pre was the greatest long distance runner of all time. No way. But, man, he was impressive. Pre died 3 weeks before I came back to my home state of Oregon in June 1975. I was heartbroken. You need to put his life in context. His parents were German - post WW2. Please remember that when you talk about his 1972 Munich, Germany Olympics 5K performance. He led that race until the end and he had ZERO sleep the night before. He was born in Coos Bay, Oregon in 1951 and grew up there. U of O T & F coach Bill Bowerman called him "Rube". Hilarious. But Pre was memorialized in the 1997 and 1998 movies (yes 2 movies). But, I admit, the only reason the Hollyweird people made 2 movies about him is that he was a rather handsome young man (sorry, I be hetero). The 2 guys that portrayed him were Jared Leto and Billy Crudup. Got it? 184.61.80.142 (talk) 05:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)

Consider This

What makes a great runner is not based on the records they hold. Steve Prefontaine was not only an incredible athlete, setting American records in almost every running event on the track. He also understood that running was about more than talent or speed. It is about heart. He didn't want to run a way the strategic way - drafting behind the other runners and then out-sprinting them at the end. He felt that winning like that wasn't worth running in the first place. To Pre, the race was about the wind in his face, running fast, and being the best. Being the best not just at the end when he broke that tape. Being the best for the whole race. I would suggest to anyone who cannot understand how Pre can be the best runner of all time without a gold medal to his name to watch WITHOUT LIMITS again. It's only a movie about him and Pre is still inspiring. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jladsit (talk • contribs) 20:43, November 27, 2005

Hogwash. There is a long list of world-class middle distance runners, from Zatopek through Viren to the great runners of today, with whom Prefontaine has to compete in the hall of hame. Prefontaine was a very good runner who might have won medals had he lived, given that 24 is young for a distance runner. We don't know. My own hero of that time, Ian Stewart, who finished just ahead of him in 1972, and Lasse Viren who won the gold, were only 23. Viren won the gold again in 1976. Exile 15:50, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

do you guys do anything but argue about meaningless things! Wam sallyie —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.74.26.146 (talk • contribs) 06:07, October 13, 2006

MGB

I added what kind of car Pre was driving when he died. I have a source for the info (which I included) but I'm pretty sure I didn't cite it right. Sorry about that.Worldtravller 23:33, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I found the style guide for citing sources so I think I've fixed my citation correctly. Worldtravller 23:49, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Pre's Death, second car (polygraph)

The article says that Luke Williams was identified as the driver of the car that a witness saw close to the accident that killed Pre. The article says "No charges were made against Williams because he passed a lie detector test (Eugene Register-Guard, May 26, 1985, p.5B)." I'm just confused because "lie detector tests" (actually called a polygraph) are inadmissible in court cases because they don't actually tell if a person is lying, they can tell if you are nervous, bu they aren't really "lie detectors," that's a nickname. There is a lot of controversy surrounding the use of polygraphs (I would never take one, because they are misleading and inaccurate, if you answer a question honestly but exhibit nervousness it could be regarded as a "lie" by the conductor) So how is a possible vehicular manslaughter let off because of a polygraph? There is a citation for a Eugene, OR newspaper, but I still think this guy Williams got off because of other, more legit reasons. I can't believe that a polygraph alone would clear someone. Although, it was the '70's so maybe people put more stock in polygraph test results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.2.242.61 (talk • contribs) 07:20, April 11, 2006

Luke Williams' name is nowhere to be found in the article. That's bad writing. Also, it appears the accident was a hit-and-run. Yes, the car didn't actually HIT Prefountaine's car, but lets face it, the other driver WOULD have known Steve had been in a wreck. Period. --Ragemanchoo (talk) 07:56, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

First of all, polygraphs certainly do measure deception. Their results are inadmissible in court not so much because of unreliability but because they invade the province of the jury (or the judge in a trial to the judge). It's the jury's job to decide who is and who is not being truthful, not some test. That said, when properly administered and interpreted polygraphs are valuable investigative tools and are widely used that way.

What bothered me about this entry is that it may be a bit of a whitewash. I live in Oregon and I met Prefontaine once. I was sports editor of my high school newspaper and I interviewed him before a high school track meet in his junior year in 1968. As a result I closely followed his career, and his unfortunate death. Here's the whitewash: My recollection is the Pre had left a party that evening where he had consumed alcoholic beverages. My recollection is that subsequent investigation established that his blood alcohol level was above the legal limit. Also that accident reconstruction seemed to indicate he was traveling too fast around that curve. I do not say these things to disparage Pre or his memory. But facts are facts and facts are stubborn things. If Wikipedia has any desire to be an accurate and authoritative source then it needs to guard itself from filtering out unpleasant truths. Besides, this way Pre's death is not in vain. It becomes a testament to the dangers of drinking and driving. LouietheIV (talk) 05:38, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Pre

Can someone add to the article how his nickname "Pre" came to origin, how he got it and who gave it to him? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.122.208.157 (talk • contribs) 17:12, May 7, 2006

I'd imagine it's not very unusual. How does someone named Jonathan get the nickname "John"? It's just an abbreviation. --Liface 01:33, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Prefontaine Quote

Did Pre really say this? "How does a kid from Coos Bay, with one leg longer than the other win races? All my life people have been telling me, 'You're too small Pre', 'You're not fast enough Pre', 'Give up your foolish dream Steve'. But they forgot something, I HAVE TO WIN." Isn't that only from the movie? I don't recall ever reading him actually saying that. sharpdust 22:55, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

He said it. I can't offer an actual citation, but I read one of the many articles in Runner's World about him, and they talked about that quote. Maybe someone else can find it, but he for sure said it. 63.113.61.138 02:01, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Its funny you should ask that, recently in Coos Bay we did a series of plaques with various quotes from Pre; that was one of the quotes we considered using but when we ran the list by his sister; she asked us to forego using that quote as she didn't believe Steve ever really said that, that it was a line used for the purposes of a movie. Coos Bay - North Bend VCB. Coosbay (talk) 10:44, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

sitting and kicking

"He is known for his extremely aggressive racing style, disliking the tactic of sitting and kicking, and always believing in giving a full effort. Prefontaine was killed on May 30, 1975 at the age of 24 in a car accident." What is "the tactic of sitting and kicking"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.157.208 (talk • contribs) 16:53, August 4, 2006

Keeping a slow pace throughout the race and then giving it all in the last 10% of the race. Pre preferred to lead from the front and keep the same splits for each mile. --Liface 01:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

gopre.com - advertising with no real content?

I visited www.gopre.com It appears to be nothing more than a short blurb with a bunch of amazon links and advertisements. Why is it listed in external links? Seems like self-promotion to me. Anyone agree that this should be deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.8.30.69 (talk • contribs) 17:30, August 25, 2006

How the AAU dispute ruined the Olympics

This is my opinion, but this point of view is missing from all articles about Steve Prefontaine, Bill Bowerman, Avery Brundage, Nike, the AAU and the Olympic Games. Like it or not, Steve's winning case against the AAU set a precedent for the Olympics that inevitably led to several things, among which:

• The inclusion of professional basketball players as US team members
• The fierce competition for titles as a means to make large sums of money
• The sponsorship of players by corporations (notably Nike),
• The attack on Nancy Kerrigan by Tanya Harding, spurred on by lust for fame and money

The last item is admittedly a controversial statement. I believe Harding wouldn't have gotten as far if there were no financial rewards at the end of the journey. The sad part is, Americans under the Avery Brundage rules were 'pure athletes', and we constantly complained about having to compete against athletes from nations that sponsored their athletes in a manner we weren't allowed to. In spite of that, we had a lot of winners. The other sad part about it is Brundage's stand for amateurism was tainted by his support of the Nazi regime before WWII, and for his lack of recognition of the felled Israeli athletes in Munich. In this way Brundage's taint and Prefontaine's court case against the AAU destroyed the spirit of the Olympics. I would appreciate someone with knowledge adding this footnote to the above articles. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.83 (talk • contribs) 14:39, September 2, 2006

I am interested in figuring out why an athlete whose training is sponsored by a corporation (in consideration for later commercial endorsements) is considered less of an athlete. Musicians on major record labels and authors with major publishers effectively have the same sort of deal. All three get their dream in exchange for money, fame, and commercial obligation. Is it that they have become less of an underdog? Why aren't Isaac Asimov or Michael Crichton treated as sellouts? (Or are they?) --205.201.141.146 21:51, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Fact check

"Prefontaine ran a personal best time of 5:01 in the mile his freshman year." That is hardly spectacular is it? He would have nearly been lapped at the recent world standard under 17's meets, let alone the under 20's. Should this not read 4:01? Its been there so long I'm loath to change it without a source. --LiamE 10:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not 4:01. Although I don’t know for sure that his freshman time was 5:01, it might have been. The point of bringing this unspectacular time up is that he did not start out as a naturally gifted star athlete; he worked very hard to get to where he did.--Fizbin 16:09, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I think I've misread it as his freshman year being the start of his university career, whereas the article is clearly talking about his high school years. My mistake. --LiamE 20:28, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

"Prefontaine established relatively modest personal bests of 5:01 in the mile and 10:08 in the two mile." This could be true, but it seems highly unlikely to me that young Pre could string together two 5:04 miles, yet only achieve a 5:01 one mile. Could this possibly be a mistake and mean 11:08? That seems a lot more likely to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.128.113.204 (talk) 22:04, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Pre set his first State Record in 1968 as a junior in high school with a 2 mile time of 9:01.3. the following year he shattered the National Two-Mile Record with an astounding time of 8:41.5. Two weeks later he ran the mile in 4:06.9; a time that still stands as the Coos County Track Meet Record. - source is the local Steve Prefontaine brochure from the Prefontaine Memorial Committee in Coos Bay. Coosbay (talk) 11:07, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Using nickname in article

Is it appropriate in an encyclopedic article to refer to someone by a nickname? I.e., should statements like "Pre's Rock became the newest of all the memorials to Pre when it..." be edited to read "Pre's Rock became the newest of all the memorials to Prefontaine when it..." Opinions please. If there are no responses, I'll make the changes in a couple of days. Otherwise, I'll wait till we've reached agreement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AidanBC (talk • contribs) 00:49, April 16, 2007

Overhaul

This article needs a major overhaul. It's important enough because Prefontaine is an American track legend. I tried to clean this up a bit, but it's lacking in encyclopedic quality and is/was written biased. No need for bias either, Prefontaine's records speak for themselves. Also, the article needs several citations at some obvious pointsLindsayLindsay —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 01:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion on color of Pre's MGB

http://www.europa.com/~bence/pre/pd.htm

On this website appears a color photo of Pre standing next to a reddish colored MGB bearing the same license plate number as the car that appears in the accident photos. A roll bar is visible through the rear window, which would lead me to believe that this is likely the same auto referred to in the article, but it is most assuredly not blue. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xlr8tor64 (talk • contribs) 18:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

High School

How did such a great athlete, finisihing high school in the very peak draft years of the Vietnam War, manage not to be conscripted? This infor would add valuable historical context. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.27.38 (talk) 01:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Not trying to be picky, but the section on his high school years is murky and unclear at best. I'm not an expert on Prefontaine, and I believe that it should be overhauled and clarified. Otherwise I think its a great article! Runningguy (talk) 01:52, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you try rewriting the section yourself? There are plenty of external links and I'm sure the references used can help too. Just a simple google search for "Steve Prefontaine biography" might turn up some more sources. Here are a few other articles to help you along the way.Sports IllustratedNew York TimesESPN I'm pretty sure that the article can be easily improved. I hope you decide to do it as track athletes aren't covered very well on Wikipedia. I'm busy finishing Tyson Gay at the moment but I can help you with any problems you have. Good luck! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 04:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Memorial coordinates

Anyone know the coordinates of the actual memorial rock? --208.65.188.31 (talk) 20:11, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Sources for alcohol as a factor in car accident

A lot of this article is unsourced so folks think they can also add the part about Prefontaine's blood alcohol level (or, more crudely, say he was "driving drunk") without citations. Since this is a controversial subject, the references to alcohol get removed, since they aren't cited. Because we should make sure we aren't whitewashing the facts, I did a quick Google News search for reliable sources regarding alcohol as a factor in the accident (took me about 5 minutes). I've listed them below in no particular order. Note that several of these are reviews of one or both of the movies. Some sources definitively state that his BAC was .16 others hedge. Here's a quote from a website not listed below, which I haven't checked to see if it was reliable: "Whether his death was an alcohol-related fatality remains controversial. His blood was tested posthumously by a mortician rather than by a medical examiner. Because the process of decomposition can create alcohol, Pre's blood-alcohol content may have been compromised." Other sources (see below) say that the man liked his beer, but friends who saw him before the crash said he couldn't have been that intoxicated. In any case, if we want something in the article about his drinking, we need to use citations. A well-written sentence without weasel wording that states the nature of the controversy needs to be included.

• http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1142700/index.htm
• http://www.thefreelibrary.com/%60PRE,+PRE,+PRE!'+:+PREFONTAINE+WAS+AHEAD+OF+HIS+TIME.-a083853992
• 1975 news story by UPI--ran in several newspapers
• New York Times story
• Seattle Times
• Bend Bulletin

Likely more like these can be found. Books would be good too, if anyone reads books anymore. ;) Katr67 (talk) 00:22, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

Records

Because Prefontaine was not only a cult hero, but also one of the best distance runners of his era, I think we need a section for his personal bests. They seem quite common on articles about athletes or ex-athletes. I've heard that he got pretty damn close to the then WR in the 10 000m. His personal bests can be found here: http://www.goducks.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=500&ATCLID=30594 I'd do it myself if I wasn't afraid of effing it up. I'm no good at editing pages. ~Kilu~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.145.79.221 (talk) 08:52, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Olympic 5000 description

Prefontaine didn't hold the lead until the final 150. Viren took the lead just before 4200m, then slowed just enough for another runner to pass him, and for Prefontaine to make a bid for the lead on the backstretch of the 2nd-to-last lap. Prefontaine couldn't complete the pass before the turn and had to settle into second through the turn, wasting energy on the pass attempt. He surged again on the bell lap but didn't have enough kick left to maintain it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.170.64.187 (talk) 07:12, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Memorials

I just edited the memorials section. Let me explain my edits.

First, I broke out "Pre's Rock" and "Other memorials." I believe this was justified because the information on Pre's Rock is equal in length and substance to all others combined. Further, I plan on uploading a picutre showing the memorabilia that spectators at the Olympic Trials have left at the rock. Having a seperate Pre's-Rock section will facilitate that picture.

Second, I re-arranged the information, moving important information to the top (description, practices), moving less-important information toward the bottom (maintenance, etc.). Piratejosh85 (talk) 13:25, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Removal of alcohol level and DWI

Uesr MIdown removed the reference to BAC and DWI with these summaries:

"It turned out that police had deviated from standard procedure when they had taken blood sample...The normal practice was for the county medical examiner to do a blood alcohol test...Wilson had never done it..." P. 332 Bowerman and the Men of Oregon)"

"The toxicology report that was done during the autopsy would naturally show a spike in blood alcohol level after death. This is a point of contention and should be left off page."

So, if there is a credible source who discuss this incident including expert analysis the aforementioned points, we should remove it, but such analysis is not something to be made by a wiki editor. Cantaloupe2 (talk) 05:24, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

The editor removing it did provide a source, a book by Kenny Moore published by Rodale Books. Gimmetoo (talk) 14:38, 10 January 2013 (UTC)

This seems to be an ongoing point of contention and both sides seem to have sources to corroborate their side. My vote is to remove references to the DWI from the intro paragraph (just mentioning his death there is sufficient in my opinion) and to have both arguments presented down in the "Death" section. If we leave both points off the page (or just one and not the other), this point of contention will just continue in perpetuity. Cluskillz (talk) 17:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

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"Final race and 25th straight win in a distance over a mile" in Competition Records

How is that the case when it clearly shows otherwise a few lines up? Are there other races he did before that one that we can't see?

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Incorrect first name

Get the name right. It wasn’t “Steven.” 2600:100F:B12C:93:4F8:E2FA:C681:C510 (talk) 05:06, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

awards or honors

c 64.98.80.71 (talk) 20:27, 20 April 2024 (UTC)