Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board/Archive 5

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current main page.

Archive 1

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Archive 3

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Aussie Stubs

Template:Australia-stub can be added to Australia-specific stubs by the {{australia-stub}} tag. Don't forget to specialise stub notices if you can.--ZayZayEM 08:10, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What do people suggest we do when, for example in Capricorn Coast, multiple stub messages are valid, but look ugly? -- Chuq 23:23, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You could try adding only one stub message and then add the specific stub categories. Martyman 23:27, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Media in Australia

I was thinking that an Australian Media category would be a useful way to tie together the radio and TV stations and newspapers for ease of browsing- the Australian Newspapers category could become a sub category of Australian media, or be subsumed by the new category (or there could be two categories)- A general article on Media Ownership in Australia might be good too- but media is well beyond my field of expertise- any takers? or suggestions? --nixie 09:21, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just wanted to comment that, I made Television in Australia and Radio in Australia redirects to List of Australian television channels/radio stations quite a while ago, as these articles are more than just lists of channels now. Perhaps the articles could soon be moved to those names? -- Chuq 08:24, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Lists and Categories

If someone gets the chance, List of Australia-related topics needs a lot of help. Between the articles in the Australian categories, and those existing articles that we have listed in these subpages, these shouldn't be too hard to fix up.

It'd also be good if someone could go through most of the articles in the subpages and make sure that they are categorised, as actually finding what articles we have has been a bit of a problem up until this came along. Ambi 10:34, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I can't see the point of this list. I agree with the comment on the talk page. There doesn't seem to be a definition of what Australian articles count as topics and should be listed on this list. If all the Australian articles where listed the list would become un-usable. I would rather see the list dispanded and more work put into making a good hiracial category system. Martyman 21:51, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've just added to my original comment there, after User:Chuq agreed that a hierachy of categories would be better in this case. Nevertheless, I'd like to review the previous discussions regarding this, as I mention there. Mark Hurd 12:50, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Redirect

How does one go about creating an automatic redirect? i know that for a manual redirect you write #Redirect [[someplace]], but in the case of APESMA (for example), one wants it to automaticaly go to Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers Australia. Note: im note asking someone to make this redirect (though it would be nice) but rather tell me how to do it. The bellman 10:21, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're asking. That's what #Redirect [[someplace]] does? Ambi 10:48, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The caped crusader has hurt himself once again. I think it was probably some problem with the cache which wasnt letting this work. oh well... thanks. The bellman 22:51, 2004 Nov 2 (UTC)

Acronyms for titles

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (acronyms)

I'm seeing Australian pages in particular keep on being named as acronyms, rather than spelled out words.--ZayZayEM 06:50, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Do you mean ARIA Music Awards? See discussion at Wikipedia:Australian wikipedians' notice board/Archive 4#ARIAs by Year -- Chuq 11:45, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not just that. Besides, along with RSL, I'll concede the acronyms are far more common usage. Woomera IRPC is one that springs to mind but there were a few others. Additionally misnomagous wikilinks such as CPSU in Association of Professional Engineers, Scientists and Managers, Australia. --ZayZayEM 06:39, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Using the acronym when that's the common usage is now becoming the Wikipedia way. See NAACP. Ambi 08:18, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I find that a very dubious step, given the international ideal of WP, just because its the common usage here, doesn't mean its the common usage there.--ZayZayEM 08:50, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I didn't say I agreed with it. With exceptions, such as the ARIA Awards, I don't like it much. Ambi 10:29, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Assuming the expanded name is the only use of that acronym (on wikipedia, at least), I don't think it matters which is the article and which is the redirect. However when a second common use becomes known, the article should be moved to the full name, and the acronym become a disambig page. I'll do that to CPSU now. -- Chuq 23:43, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Woomera IRPC has been moved to Woomera Immigration Reception and Processing Centre. Ditto for Villawood Immigration Detention Centre - Borofkin 23:58, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think this might be a defect in Australian English that we use acronyms. ALP, ACTU, AMWU, NUS are all much more common than spelling them out in spoken (and as a result) written language. For instance the nice simple "Aye em double-u u" hides the much more horribly complex Automotive Food Metals Engineering Printing and Kindred Industries Union (a name known only to the commission). Articles should be at their full names (or contracted names as per Australian Manufacturing Workers' Union) but we should have a healthy slew of redirects. Hands up who wants to do the redirect for every name, acronym and alternate name used by the unions that amalgamated into the AMWU (Hint: the history is only 2/3rds done). Fifelfoo 01:07, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

AMWU mergers

Not quite on the topic, but it might be nice if the unions that amalgamated into the AMWU had their own articles, rather than being redirects. Ambi 05:48, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

One problem is that some of these unions were really cursory "merger era" constellations, just waiting for the next deal to line up the next manufacturing industry merger. Some however, like the Amalgamated Engineering Union, were "in their own right" institutuions: problem is that these ones are the "direct" predecessors of the AMWU. I'll keep plodding with the AMWU history. When it becomes too big we can stub the history into its major sections, and spawn articles on the defunct unions.Fifelfoo 00:02, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Supreme Courts

Supreme Court of New South Wales, Supreme Court of Victoria. Other states. No articles. Considering how important they are to our legal system, these really need articles. Anyone? Ambi 10:26, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've been trying to prepare an article on the Australian court hierarchy, and build up a category related to that, so I'd be happy to do some stuff for this - in about a week and a half though, when exams are over. I'm a law student, so I've got some pretty good resources ready. --bainer 20:16, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wonderful - thank you! Ambi 05:48, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cricket

Any cricket fans? Australian cricket team, while very detailed, certainly needs a cleanup -- Chuq 00:54, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

yes, and amongst my other hobbies are watching the grass grow and the paint dry. Of all the possible reasons to have a grudge against the pommies, i think the propigation of cricket, is by far thier worst sin. Backyard cricket on the other hand is great fun. The bellman 04:29, 2004 Nov 5 (UTC)

Setting targets for ourselves

What would you all think of setting an article target for ourselves - something like getting fifty new, non-stub articles by the end of the month? There's so many of us here now that it'd be quite achievable.

It'd be nice, regardless, to keep a bit of a log of new Australian-related articles. I just discovered (after I had the idea, mind you) the Wikipedia:New articles (Australia and New Zealand) page. That's been rarely updated - I think it'd be nice to ditch New Zealand, and start from scratch on our own. There's a decent example of such a list at Wikipedia:New articles (Battles). I for one like to see what other people are writing - preferably without having to dig through edit histories in the process. Ambi 08:46, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Or you can just write here and say you're taking it on. Everyone knows I'm doing the unions. And everyone has been really good at wikify-edits, copy-edits, style-edits and real editorial stuff. (I still hold that everyone in the TU movement knows APESMA is a yellow-dog union but I agree that I might be NPOV on that). Fifelfoo 10:23, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree, it would be nice to see the new Australian articles springing up. For what it's worth, being a mad Essendon supporter, I'm working on doing bio pages for some of the most important players in the club's history. People are welcome to check over what I'm doing, since I can assure you I'm biased when it comes to the club, although I try to keep everything NPOV of course! Shane King 10:36, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

Would anyone mind if I get started on such a page (at, say, Wikipedia:Australian wikipedians' notice board/Recent articles)? I can dig through a few edit histories to get it started off, and then you guys could help keep it updated. Ambi 10:50, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea, if someone doesn't just take the idea and start it, it will never happen. Shane King 14:01, Nov 5, 2004 (UTC)

Stick to the current model ‐ just start up Wikipedia:New articles (Australia) and add some fancy tagline to the old page saying something like "in November 2004 a dashing young group of intrepid Australian editors left their Kiwi cousins behind and craeted Wikipedia:New articles (Australia) to preserve national integrity" -- ZayZayEM 15:07, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Created and done. By my count (and I may have missed some), we've created 39 articles in the last six days alone. If you create a new article, please add it there. Could someone find a spot to link to this in the to-do list box? Ambi 01:40, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I presume that there arent as many kiwis on wikipedia as aussies. Considering this, i was just wondering if maybe it isnt better to keep the recent articles as an ANZACian effort, and maybe even turn this notice board in to an AUS/NZ notice board, so that our sheep admiring brethren on the wrong side of the sea, may have a place to congrigate, communicate, and collaborate, untill such a time as there are enough of them, and a strong enough community that they can de-merge. What would others on the board think about this? The bellman 01:51, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)

Don't most New Zealanders already live in Australia? ;) I don't really mind either way, it's more up to them not us I'd think. Shane King 01:54, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

Although now im more into esTotW and trying to set up more traslation efforts, the reason that im actually involved in wikipedia (after hovering on the side lines as an anon user for over two years) was the seting up of australian collaboration of the week, and im just thinking that if there had been a NZ notice board, or an NZ collaboration of the week, (as opposed to an aussie notice board and collaboration of the week) i wouldnt have got involved with wikipedia, and so surely the same should be able to be said in reverse. Some newbe kiwi who was hovering on the sidelines of wikipedia isnt likely to join the fold for an australian notice board/CotW. Did that make any sense or am i just rambling? Anywho, my point is that CotW/notice boards are good jumping off points for new wikipedians The bellman 02:24, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)

Sweet as. We'll make our own one. New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board. Nurg 08:41, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Categorising to-do list

What would you all think reorganising the to-do list according to categories (i.e. politics, sport, events, etc.), rather than the present setup? It might see a little more work getting done - I don't see a whole lot of work happening on those in the 'to improve' section, so maybe the space could be better used. Ambi 08:23, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

~~Go for it--ZayZayEM 11:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)~~
- I've had a go at getting together an (albeit somewhat messy, formatting isn't my speciality) replacement here - any thoughts? Ambi 11:24, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  - That looks ok to me, perhaps a link to the newly created articles could be added too? Shane King 01:54, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)
oh you meant that list (I thought you meant to /todo subpage - which certainly needs a bit of cleanup). I'm rather content with the way it is now (a motley mix of everything). I'm more interested in teh larger list being well presented and understandable.--ZayZayEM 06:41, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Someone with a knack for explorers

Augustus Gregory is up for clean-up, it needs a good pruning, and sub headings--nixie 13:23, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Prickly Pears in Australia

I looked at Opuntia and found it said this:

Opuntia stricta – imported into Australia in the 1920s for use as a natural agricultural fence and quickly became a widespread weed, rendering 40,000 km² of farming land unproductive. The Cactoblastis moth, a South American moth whose larvae eat prickly pear, was introduced in 1925 and quickly almost wiped out the infestation. This case is often cited as a "textbook" example of successful biological pest control. The same moth, introduced accidentally further north of its native range into southern North America, is causing serious damage to some native species in that area

Prickly pears are certainly still a pest in my neck-of-the-woods. US textbooks suck.--ZayZayEM 14:54, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes they do. The prickly pear was introduced as food for the beetles that the red dye for soldiers uniforms was made from. -- Alphax (talk) 05:47, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

St Paul's Cathedral, Melbourne

New from me. St James's Old Cathedral could use an article, too. Adam 10:51, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

ACOTW?

Please help my anxiety.

People seem to be oddly absent from the WP:ACOTW project lately.

This weeks project is Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia

--ZayZayEM 06:31, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

After Tuesday, Wikipedia will have my (mostly) undivided attention for the next four months. So I for one will be able to help a lot more. Ambi 13:27, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

~~There will be a tie again tommorrow morning if someone doesn't break it between Azaria Chamberlain and Port Arthur, Tasmania~~

Port Arthur, Tasmania has won--ZayZayEM 00:29, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

AFL works-in-progress

I'm about to start adding articles for each season of the AFL/VFL competition, along the lines of Australian Football League season 2004, Australian Football League season 2003, etc. The design I'm using is here: User:TPK/Drafts/Australian Football League season 2004. What I'm up in the air about at the moment is where to put the parent list of seasons. I was thinking of moving List of Australian Football League premiers to List of Australian Football League seasons, keeping the premier list as is, but adding a Full season details or similar link besides each one, linking to the appropriate season article. Does that sound like a good idea?

Also, please check my draft: I'm considering whether to add information for each round, as well as the final scores at the end of the season that I already have. Of course, that's a hell of a lot of information (though I have all of it handy, so that's no problem); I'm just worried that it might be overkill. Either way, the final ladder, medal winners, attendances, etc are all there.

Lastly, I've created List of Australian rules football leagues in Australia, and List of Australian rules football leagues outside Australia. I think of them as like the lists of suburbs and railway stations - some are totally local affairs, like a lot of the suburbs around, but I hope they can eventually be filled out. My other plan along these lines is to create Internationality of Australian rules football, expanding on this section of the AFL article - there is a hell of a lot more going on with the sport outside this country than most people realize, methinks.

T.P.K. 07:09, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I was planning on doing something similar. I was keen to add round by round scores, and for the finals even a paragraph on each match might not be excessive, in my opinion. Also the pre-season competition should be documented, plus who was coaching each club for the year, and a list of notable events (eg coach sackings, players in media controversies etc - might be easier for newer years!), afl draft listing too. Of course, all that can happen gradually over time, doesn't have to be done all in one hit.

Then again, maybe I'm dreaming too big? I'd suggest making a start on the articles, details can be added over time. The link next to the premiers was how I anticipated linking the articles in, so I'd go with that. Shane King 08:33, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

OK, I've made a start. For anyone who wants to help, as there are about 105 articles to create, I've put a copy-n-paste template up at User:TPK/Drafts/AFL season boilerplate, and all the stats are available here. You don't need to know footy though! So if at least a handful of people take on say 10 seasons each, we can have this done in no time. Thanks, and over-and-out. T.P.K. 12:42, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'll start from the start, ie 1897, and work my way forward tomorrow when I get the chance. Shane King 13:18, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

You can count on some help from me after Tuesday, too - TPK's template was an excellent idea. Ambi 13:27, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thankyou all. One thing I forgot to bring up is that the AFL doesn't exist prior to 1990. At the premiers list, I made all the links as Victorian Football League season xxxx from 1897 to 1989. The links in the template will need to be changed where appropriate. I think redirects from Australian ... season xxxx (prior to 1990) should be made to the Victorian ... articles too. T.PK 13:29, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm the maintainer of AFL Tables, mentioned above. I can create all the bare bones scores and such, once I've figured out how it works - Paul.

On club songs in articles

I've noticed some AFL articles have club songs listed in them. Is this a copyright violation? I have a feeling it is, since the lyrics of many of them are pretty recent (especially for the sides only recently joining the league), and hence will still be copyrighted. I can't see how we can claim fair use, since we're just quoting them wholesale without any surrounding critique or discussion. I'd like someone to clarify if we can use them, because otherwise I think we should remove them. Shane King 09:28, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

Copyright or not, I don't see why the whole song should be on the site. My 2 cents is that is easier to just link to the lyrics page on the official club site. --Roisterer 21:03, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Come on, they're not so long that they clutter up the articles—I think they're a good addition. If we can use them that is. I've also had some concerns over logos, such as the AFL logo and all of the club emblems. I notice ShaneKing that you added most of them? Did you find anything about the copyright status? Since there is no fair-use in Australia, I'm not sure we can use these without permission.

One other thing, I wanted to add either pictures of diagrams of the club jerseys as well (besides not knowing where I'd get them all), I'm wondering whether we could use them too? (Obviously when they're in a photo of a game or something, it's not a problem, but when it's used wholesale like the songs?) Hmm.. █ T █ P █ K █ 05:28, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There is no fair use, but remember that there is fair dealing. --Robert Merkel 05:57, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

But at least with the club songs, fair dealing only allows their use if there is some form of criticism or the like, and as there isn't any, and they are reprinted entirely (fair dealing only allows less-than-significant portions), I'm not so sure. I still want them in the articles, but only if we can have them. And I don't know how fair dealing applies to images; I don't think it does, does it? █ T █ P █ K █ 06:10, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I believe wikipedia policy is to assume US laws in relation to fair use. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that point. In any case, I think that we can claim fair dealing on them, at least according to the description of fair dealing as wikipedia explains it, although I am not a lawyer. Unless someone can give legal advice otherwise, I'm willing to leave the logos. The songs are another matter, they seem a clear copyright violation. Shane King 06:11, Nov 12, 2004 (UTC)

Club songs have been removed, since I didn't get any advice otherwise that they're OK to keep. The only way I can see them as being OK to add back in is if we either get permission, or we're analysing the lyrics. Shane King 02:38, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)

Bunbury Western Australia information

I'm happy for you to use this article on Bunbury Western Australia -

Bunbury Western Australia

The first recorded mapping of what is now Koombana Bay and the eventual City of Bunbury, was in 1803 by the French explorers Nicolas Baudin and Louis de Freycinet, from their ships the Geographe and Casuarina. In 1831 there was a temporary English military settlement with the first settlers moving to the area named after Lieutenant Henry William St Pierre Bunbury in 1838. A growing port serviced the settlers and the subsequent local industries that developed.

The area is the traditional land of the Noongar Aboriginal people with many Noongar names and travel routes still widely used today. The Noongar (which means "man") people have occupied the south west area of Western Australia for around 38,000 years and their traditional stories tell of the Waagle (or Rainbow Serpent) giving life and sustenance to their people who in return were the caretakers of the land.

Enjoying a mild Mediterranean climate, the city is bordered by the Indian Ocean, Koombana Bay and Leschenault inlet and naturally enough water sports, port and harbour facilities as well as a growing seafoods industry, feature highly in the local lifestyle and economy. Bunbury's port is Australia's ninth largest port by volume and by 2020 should be rated within the nation's top five.

Located 175km south of Perth, the city and its neighboring suburbs have a population of 52,000 and Bunbury is one of Australia's fastest growing cities. Bunbury is the commercial hub to WA's "South West", an area that is home to the Margaret River wine region and major coal, alumina and mineral sands industries; a region that boasts around 8,000 businesses and a GDP of over $5 billion. Presently it is about a 2 hour drive from Perth to Bunbury, but this will be reduced by 30 minutes on the completion of the recently announced Bunbury Highway or Peel Deviation.

Bunbury is well known for its "Cappucino Strip" restaurant and café precinct and more recently the fast developing Marlston waterfront area that already includes the upmarket Vat 2 restaurant, Taffy's "live" confectionary outlet, Barbados tavern and nightclub, Jiving J's waterfront bar and eatery and "Surprise Chef" Aristos's own seafood boardwalk.

Thousands of years ago Bunbury was subject to lava flows which resulted in both the unique basalt rock formations on the city beach as well as the present Marlston Hill and Boulters Heights, where today some of Bunbury's most exclusive residential real estate is located. Bunbury is also home to Australia's southernmost mangroves and the world's last native Tuart forest is just south of Bunbury.

There are numerous property choices in the Bunbury area ranging from trendy cosmopolitan apartments to traditional suburban family homes and from beach retreats to rural or semi-rural properties.

There is a wide variety of attractions, with Bunbury the home of the Dolphin Discovery Centre where you can learn about and interact with wild dolphins, whilst in 2005 the city hopes to host a round of the Formula Nippon motor racing circuit. There is an indoor skate centre, ten pin bowling, cinema within the CBD area with the Bunbury Entertainment Centre alongside. Bunbury boasts a major aquatic and fitness centre with a smaller indoor pool located at Australind. You can get a good view of Bunbury and the surrounding areas from the Apex Lookout Tower at Marlston Hill or at Boulters Heights, right alongside the city centre. Our 360º night-view panorama of Bunbury is shot from the base of the Apex Lookout.

Bunbury is home to up to 90 bottlenose dolphins and visitors can wade in Koombana Bay while dolphins swim amongst you or you can take one of the Dolphin Discovery Centre's "Swim with the Dolphins" cruises. Bunbury is one of the few places where wild dolphins freely visit the beach and interract with humans.

There are 9 secondary schools in the central Bunbury area, a campus of Edith Cowan University, TAFE College, several shopping centres, sporting grounds and major private and public hospitals.

Shops are normally open 8.30am-5.30pm Monday to Friday and 8.30am-5.00pm Saturdays with late night shopping until 9pm on Thursday. The Eaton Fair Shopping Centre in Bunbury's north-eastern suburbs has extended trading hours 7 days a week. Banks only operate 10am - 4pm Monday through Thursday and until 5pm on Fridays, although credit and building societies normally also open on Saturday mornings. There are a host of automatic teller machines and bank agencies dotted in and around Bunbury.

To get around Bunbury there are ample modern taxis, a public bus transport service and more recently a tourist "tram" that will carry you about the city areas and give you an explanation of the local sites as you go. The Bunbury Visitor Centre in Carmody Street near Centrepoint Shopping Centre will also assist with additional maps and local knowledge.

There are several Bunbury medical practices and we have a listing of emergency medical contacts on our "Contact" page.

There are a number of Post Offices in the Bunbury area and postage stamps can also be purchased at local newsagencies. Postage for a standard letter, anywhere in Australia, is 50c.

Free to Air TV channels in Bunbury are the ABC, GWN, WIN and SBS but many homes also receive the Perth networks 7, 9 and 10. Foxtel pay TV is also available in Bunbury. The electricity supply in Bunbury, like the rest of Australia, is 240v. While you are travelling you can be updated on Bunbury and the South West region by turning to Western Tourist Radio. In the Bunbury region turn to 98.4 FM.

City and suburban locations in the Bunbury area include Australind, Eaton, Dalyellup, Vittoria Heights, Marlston Hill, Clifton Park, Gelorup, Mangles, Leschenault, Crosslands, Sandridge Park, Glen Padden, South Bunbury, Withers, College Grove, Carey Park, Picton, Davenport and East Bunbury. There is a full listing of Bunbury real estate in our Bunbury real estate guide.

The Bunbury region of Western Australia includes the areas of Harvey, Capel, Dardanup, Binningup, Myalup, Burekup, Boyanup, Peppermint Grove Beach, Stratham, Yarloop, Wokalup, Benger, Brunswick, Roelands, Leschenault and the Ferguson Valley.

Bunbury is now also home to a substantial expat community from the USA, Canada, South Africa, Zimbabwe and Botswana. Our Bunbury real estate guide is of obvious benefit to both business migrants and the local Bunbury community alike.

The Noongar Story in Bunbury and the WA South West:

The Noongar people are the original human inhabitants of Bunbury and the South West area of Western Australia. Today, as locals try to make sense of the established Western seasons, it is worthwhile examing the traditional Noongar seasons that divided the south west's climate into 6 rather than 4 separate seasons.

In Noongar Aboriginal culture, Boojar (or land) is of the utmost importance. Each tribal group had their own kaleep or favoured camping locality, which held a special significence to them. The culture has a complex relationship to the land and pays respect to the seasons and the bountiful supply of food.

The Noongar year has six seasons, the first being from December to January. This season is called Birak where hot, easterly winds blow during the day and Noongar people used to burn sections of scrubland to force animals into the open to hunt.

From February to March, during Bunuru, the dry weather conditions meant Noongars moved to estuaries where fish constituted a large proportion of the seasonal diet.

During Djeran, in April to May, the weather was becoming cooler with winds from the south west. Fishing continued and bulbs and seeds were collected for food.

During the coldest season, Makuru (june to July), Noongars moved inland to hunt areas once rains had replenished inland water resources.

In Djilba, as the weather was becoming warmer from August to September, roots were collected and emus, possums and kangaroo were hunted.

In Kambarang, when rain was decreasing during October to November, families moved towards the coast where frogs, totoises and freshwater crayfish were caught.

You can learn more about Bunbury Western Australia at - http://www.bunburyonline.com

French nuclear testing

This is on VfD at the moment! I urge all Aussies to expand the article and and vote against this vote for deletion. - Ta bu shi da yu 13:47, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC) +

It is? Where? Alphax (talk) 09:46, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC) +

New from me: H.C. Coombs, John Dunmore Lang. I have linked to a photo of Lang at the NLA catalogue. If someone thinks that this photo is public domain, it can be installed in the article. I now only upload my own photos. Adam 04:06, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC) +

Request Feedback About Geographic Articles

I'd like to get some opinions from the general pop. as to whether or not local areas that are not technically suburbs in their own right should be permitted on Wikipedia. +

I'm having a friendly difference of opinion with an experienced Wikipedian about whether Syndal deserves its own page or not. I believe it does - Syndal has its own railway station, its own post office and is for all intensive purposes besides pure technicality, as good as a suburb. Of course its article should, and did, clearly outline that Syndal is not technically a suburb, but is still an area worthy of mention. Also, if Syndal is out, this then puts into question other articles such as Kmart Plaza or, to go to extremes, even possibly Chadstone Shopping Centre - if there is no blanket policy, who decides what level of publicity or notability an area needs to have before becoming worthy of an article? I can guarantee you, the average American wouldn't consider Lygon Street to be any more or less encyclopedic than Syndal, but many Melbourne residents may disagree.

I'm still trying to fully comprehend the democratic process behind Wikipedia, but on Wikipedia:What's in, what's out#Cities, "Towns/locations of historic significance, regardless of present status." comes up twice as In, as well as "All human settlements and geographic features that more than a stub could concievably be written about.", but these contradict other users who feel that "Small towns without other significance", for example, should be left Out. And I'm left Confused!

The whole idea of Wikipedia:What's in, what's out was to express opinions, including conflicting ones. Don't the introductory paragraphs make this clear? Andrewa 05:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

So I think an article should be left in, and another user disagrees, and yet no distinct definable Wikipedia policy, guideline, or rule can be shown by either party to settle the matter. Do we just have an edit war where the user with the most time and patience wins in the end, or is there a logical, democratic way to resolve this?

Would really appreciate any and all feedback on this matter, either here or on my talk page. Thanks!

Vaelor 09:11, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The general consensus so far has been that articles on these are fine. Years ago, a bot created articles on every single locality in the United States, and a handful of attempts to delete these have been roundly shouted down. It's basically been the same everywhere - I don't think I've ever seen an article about a place ever deleted. Ambi 09:25, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Schools are places and they routinely get deleted. Shane King 10:38, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

*rolls eyes* You know full well that I'm talking about geographic localities. Try putting one of them through VFD and see the response you get. Ambi 10:50, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Ambi, appreciate your prompt and firm response. Any chance you might be able to point me towards any information that backs up what you're saying? Ie. a policy page, precedent, archived VfD page, talk page, or anything else that stands on Wikipedia as supporting evidence that all geographic locality pages should be kept? Also, if anybody else could please throw their two cents worth in, that would be appreciated too - failing any solid proof, I'd like a majority show of hands one way or the other if possible. =) Thanks. - Vaelor 12:18, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's been numerous VfD discussions - one time in particular, someone (User:Eequor, I believe) put all the bot articles up on VfD, but I'm not sure where that is, and we haven't been very good with archiving VfD results. It's also come up on the mailing list a fair few times. Also, even most deletionists (of which I'm one) haven't been pushing for the removal of any locality articles.

Of course, you're welcome to test it - but as I said to ShaneKing above, I can't actually recall one time when a locality article has been deleted. Ambi 12:35, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A school is (in general) a geographic locality in addition to being an educational institution. Most schools are fixed and don't move! The point I was demonstrating is there is certainly a level of granularity that people draw a line in the sand at. Maybe for some people sub-suburbs cross that, although I doubt it would be enough for a successful VfD. Personally, I wouldn't worry about VfD: write an article if you think the topic is valid, chances are if the article is half decent and it's not on something totally crazy people wont bother to list it on VfD anyway. Shane King 13:29, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

I don't think there's the slightest doubt that Syndal is an acceptable article topic. It's a real place with a real history and geography, there was even a state electorate of Syndal for a while. Who says it's not a real suburb? I assume that means it doesn't have a postcode, but that's true of lots of places. In my own area Ripponlea, Middle Park, Gardenvale and Balaclava don't have postcodes but they are real places where people live. Adam 13:01, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It was TPK who said that Syndal was not a suburb, and in that he is correct - Syndal is a locality on the border of Glen Waverley and Mount Waverley. Still, I felt that it merited its own page, and TPK disagreed, but the page was never listed on VfD - TPK simply turned the page into a disambig pointing to Syndal railway station. When I asked him what the deal was, he said that Syndal wasn't a suburb and hence he didn't feel it merited its own page. When I disagreed, he suggested I post here to get people's general opinions on the topic.

As I mentioned above, Syndal does have its own post office (sharing Mount Waverley's postcode, 3149) and train station, and most other amenities including schools (ie. Syndal South Primary School)... and I know a lot of people who consider Syndal to be their home who would be pretty confused to hear that it apparently doesn't exist!

I'm no geography expert, nor do I claim to have any knowledge about how geopolitical boundaries affect our lives, but all I know is, if I can have my mail addressed to Syndal, VIC, 3149, and receive it, then Syndal is real enough for me. What would you guys think overall if I were to revert my article on Syndal and let it stand? Would you agree that is the right thing to do in this case? - Vaelor 15:15, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC) +

I don't see any great benefit in the disambig page. Your original article had all the info that's in that disambig page, plus more. If you're going to have an article at a name, I see no reason why you wouldn't want to put as much detail as you can there. Shane King 23:15, Nov 14, 2004 (UTC)

I'm stretched to my limits with SYndal. But a K-mart shopping complex getting a Wikipedia article, that is rather ridiculous. I understand Chadstone's entry, its an important shopping centre, but a Kmart and Coles an article does not make.--ZayZayEM 00:02, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Damn.. caught myself out with that one, didn't I? =) I have to admit, when you put it like that, it does sound kind of ridiculous, but as I defended on Kmart Plaza's VfD page, I think this article's notability lies more in the fact that it contains one of metro Melbourne's last 24-hour trading Coles and Kmart stores. 24 hours Coles stores all over Melbourne have closed or reverted their hours to standard trading hours over the last five years, and this plaza has the ONLY 24-hour Kmart that I'm aware of. Personally I think this article's notability lies in that fact, rather than as a shopping complex that has a Coles and a Kmart and a bunch of other shops there. =) - Vaelor 03:22, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm not challenging this article anymore, as it has overwhelming support. One thing I have to ask though, is what happens if the Coles and Kmart in Burwood East stop trading 24 hours, if they follow the trend? Does the Kmart Plaza article any longer have grounds for inclusion? █ T █ P █ K █ 04:35, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have to agree, I don't really think suburban malls need their own articles, a paragraph describing malls in a suburb, or town and any unique features of that mall is probably sufficient. --nixie 04:50, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Actually, that's a fair point - if the only notable feature is the 24/7 trading hours, I suppose there's no reason why this can't simply be mentioned as a feature of Burwood East's suburb article instead. I'll happily make that change if/when the Kmart Plaza article is deleted (which it looks like will be a unanimous vote when I retract my Keep vote). It seems the majority don't consider 24/7 trading to be notable enough for a seperate article anyway, so scratch it, and render this a moot point. - Vaelor 09:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'd keep Syndal. Railway stations are in IMO, we have all the London Underground and Paris Metro stations for example. But bus stops, tram stops and shopping centres are out IMO unless notable in some other way. Neither the Kmart Plaza, Burwood East nor the Chadstone Shopping Centre articles establish this notability IMO. One of the largest is too vague. Top 100? Top 1000? Top ten? Don't know? Andrewa 05:43, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The article isn't about Syndal railway station, Melbourne, it is about the local area around the station. As for Chadstone, I believe it is the second or third largest shopping centre in this hemisphere, and not so long ago was the largest. Knox or Fountain Gate I think is now the largest in this country (I think a development in South Africa is now the largest in the hemisphere), but Chadstone and several other centres in Melbourne are in at least the top 10, maybe even 5, below the equator, as such, they deserve articles IMHO. █ T █ P █ K █ 07:07, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Looks like Knox is the biggest, taking over from Chadstone, although the Age article I found mentions Chadstone has a planned extension to be completed in 2004 (the article being from 2002). I don't live in Melbourne anymore, so I have no idea at all whether that happened or not. See: [1]

Knox is the current largest in the country, followed by Fountain Gate, Chadstone, and Southland, all in Melbourne. Chadstone's new development is still in the works and would make it the largest again. I'm not so sure of the international standing, but am certain it's still high. █ T █ P █ K █ 07:41, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the more concrete info there Tom. I'll edit this in shortly so that the Chadstone article is more clear about its notability. Cheers. - Vaelor 09:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Completely off-topic thought: You mean Fountain Gate is real?! Naive Sydney-sider that I am, I just assumed it was some made-up name given to the shopping mall in Kath & Kim episodes - I had never realised it was actually a real place! If that was my local shopping centre being parodied, I'd be "gropeable" ;-) Nickj 22:07, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Whoops, correction: it's actually Fountain Lakes in Kath & Kim, not Fountain Gate ! -- Nickj 21:17, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

True. The point I was trying to make is that a suburb with a railway station is likely to be notable too. Post offices I'm not so sure, unless they have their own postcode. Andrewa 00:29, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A Syndal article is fine, but this one reads like it was written by the Chamber of Commerce. It should tell us the origin of the name, when it was settled, and what its area and population is. Adam 06:18, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Well, that would be because so far the only person who has contributed to the article has been me, and I'm a businessman. That's what makes it a stub - it's open for one or more of my esteemed Wikipedian colleagues with much more knowledge/experience than I have in non-commercial matters to improve upon in their own fields of expertise. Please feel free to add the information you suggested Adam, if you have such information. - Vaelor 09:45, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Request for help from Canberrans

I'm planning to expand Australian Institute of Sport in the next few days as my entry in Wikipedia:Danny's contest. Would it be possible for one of you to take some photos of the AIS campus? It'd be much appreciated. Ambi 10:55, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Vfd: Xavier College (Melbourne)

Vfd: Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Xavier College (Melbourne) Article: Xavier College (Melbourne). Is it notable? Founded 1878, Jesuit private school... is it well-known in Australia? Elite alumni? Vote and help clarify for those of us outside AU; add to the article if it is and if you can. Thanks from Canada! Samaritan 23:35, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I've added a list of notable alumni to the article, but as far as information on the school goes, I don't know anything. It's also not a subject I'm interested in learning about, so someone else is going to have to help out if the article is to improve. Shane King 07:38, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Australian Victoria Cross reciepients

I came across this Wikipedia:WikiProject Victoria Cross Reference Migration eariler today. Basically the owner of the website wants to shift all content to Wikipedia. Its an excellent source for information on the person who recieved the award military service, but for other biographical information you need to go elsewhere, here's on I did today: Arthur Roden Cutler. Since most of these guys went on to live interesting lives I think we should try to shift the Australians to wikipedia--nixie 03:00, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Wikinews

Well wikinews is up and running (sort of - its in the demo/beta stage). So far there is only one australian stub news article... The bellman 05:56, 2004 Nov 16 (UTC)

Thanks for posting about this. I meant to do it this morning, but forgot - it'd be good if we could get our little Aussie Wikinews going there. Ambi 06:53, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)